Subscription Only Licences My Opinion

  • Turner Kenneth Comment actions Permalink

    I'm a CG professional I agree with all the points you make  'Perpetual OR Subscription' models are unquestionably better for small studios and individual users.

    CG profit margins are small. Renting a big suite of occasional use software doesn't work for the reasons you outlined it just piles on expenses.  Renting for a single month is rarely practical since the use cycle is a few days every month rather a single month as one block. 

    Die hard MD users will find ways to make this 'feel ok' but really it isn't.

    'Subscription Only' models are just a protection racket .  

     

  • TomTom Comment actions Permalink

    I also agree to all the points. At least offer an option to "buy" your license at the end when you stop the subscription. That way you wouldn't be left behind without anything.

  • Grobins Ryan Comment actions Permalink

    First of all, I want to make it clear that I do not condone software piracy in any way.

     

    But that being said, as soon as it is being perceived by the hobbyists that they now have to shell out hundreds of dollars each year for each piece of software they may only occasionally use without any other financial options, then piracy will increase, because that then becomes the path of least resistance for making sure your files are not being held to ransom.

     

    I have a quite a few licenses of different perpetual software that I haven't felt the need to upgrade because I was happy with the feature set at the time to produce my work. And my files are not being held to ransom, if for any reason in the future I need to open them up here and there through each year.

  • Soto Juan Carlos Comment actions Permalink

    I don't speak english, so I get lost easily. I hope someone can please tell me if I got this right:

    1- I have a Perpetual 8 licence.  I will be able to upgrade to a Perpetual license for 10 (new users will only have subscription available starting from the 10 release).

    2- The last Perpetual version I will be able to get through upgrades is 12. 13 won't have the option.

     

    Basically, I just want to be able to eventualy have the last Perpetual version possible and stick with it. Should I upgrade to 9 now or I can wait for 10 and then 12? (skipping 8 and 11 as I don't use MD that much to upgrade to every version). Upgrades only go back 3 versions right? I wouldn't be able to just upgrade from 8 to 12 in a few years?

     

    Just a little confused, thanks!

  • Kromek David Comment actions Permalink

    This is a really disappointing decision.  I've always preferred a perpetual licence and always will.  You've basically lost a customer (i.e. me).  And right in the middle of a pandemic-induced economic recession - a really dumb move.  Honestly, Marvelous Designer, do you really think people have *more* money now to afford your software?  If anything, they have less.  Well, there are a lot of other clothing simulators/creators out there.  I've always thought that MD was the best, but what the hell, I can get used to some other software.  It's your loss.

  • Ripley Daniel Comment actions Permalink

    @ Soto Juan Carlos.

    Yes you basically got it right.  So you could get version 9 then skip and jump to 12 and that's it forever, your stuck on version 12.  Version 13 onwards will set you back $300 to rent it and never own it.  Im also on version 8 so Im in the same position, id need to upgrade twice in order to get the last ever perpetual licence.

    .

    I upgraded MD 7 to 8 where as I could have waited to version 10 but I didnt because version 8 was a good upgrade, it had some very useful features.

    .

    Im facing the same situation for Substance Painter, I must upgrade at the latest time possible in order to get the features for the next 12 months there after, then that's it no further upgrades or bug fixes.  I hope by then Im not left with a buggy version of features that will not get fixed due to maintenance expiry.  This bring in my point about linking features with bug fixes into a maintenance, bug fixes should continue to be free if the software contains bugs for features you have already paid for.

    .

     

    Dan

  • Hans Christian Comment actions Permalink

    I'm a hobbyist and I think changing license to to subscription is an insult to every user that has paid the full price for the product and upgraded whenever there was a new version.

    The reason for changing to a subscription model has only to do with one thing: Greed.

    When creative companies with soul get's taken over by greedy marketing people that only care about profit the product goes from a tool for artist for inspiration to a money machine. Just look at Maxon which got a greedy chairman from Adobe. What happens next? Yes you guessed it - subscription model.

    In the newest Photoshop version Adobe brags about the fantastic new ways to save a file in the cloud. Oh my God this is truthfully a milestone in the development of Photoshop.

    What happens with development in these companies is that they can now slow down on development and has no incitament to do their best to develop the software. They know that their users are forced to subscribe because else they can through the skills away they have build up through time. Furthermore they can't edit any files they have made unless they pay for at least a month. Doing this a couple of times ends up with being forced to buy at least a year of subscription. And there you go - the show goes on.

    By this the company has secured itself a steadily reliable income with very little incentive to develop anything meaningful.

    Actually I'm beginning to question if subscription models for software companies are legal at all. In my opinion they violate full competition because the explore the uniqueness of their product that forces the users to be bound forever. When a license is perpetual people can actually decide to wait to upgrade if the upgrade is either too expensive for what you get or just isn't a true upgrade but more like an update. That way the company is forced to do their best to develop the product and get the customers back.

    I'm my opinion this is the same as when a company deliveres a standard machine but makes their own screws and bolts so customer has to use the company if something breaks down and the customer needs it fixed. The customer can't get a competiting company to do it because they haven't got these special made screws that are only made to force the customer to stay at the first company. 

    The above is an example of violating a standard. And most companies are required to obey that standard to avoid monopoly and bound customers.

     

    In my opinion subscription models for software are the same thing. Has someone challenge this way of licensing in general? I doubt it.

     

  • FV Comment actions Permalink

    I fully agree with the points mentioned above. The perpetual license with upgrade option allows me to stay up to date at reasonable cost. I am a hobby user. I cannot justify to spend that much money on 'subscription fees', simple as that. I stepped in at MD2 and the annual version updates were just affordable. 

    I use MD part as creation tool some of the time, but most time I use it just as simulation engine. Buying a month license for a creation projec therefore does not work because I would create stuff I cannot use on the simulation engine I have avialable. 

    It must be said in their credit they are providing a planned exit.They could as well simply have stopped providing perpetual licenses via update. This is not the case, so praise where praise is due. 

    So, where to go from here?

    If I am to end up with a version I cannot update, so it better be the most developed one.

    Strategy that comes to mind then is stay with my current MD9 until MD13 is announced, probably summer 2023, and then look if features of MD12 are worth making the update.

    Upgrade fees are if I remember correctly 25% for upgrade from current minus one version and 40% for upgrade from current minus 2 and current minus 3 versions. Up side is therefore I save 3*25%-40% = 35% of the purchase price of a perpetual licence.

    Hey wait a minute! 40% of what price? There will not be a list price for a perpetual license because there are no more perpetual licences on offer. I am curious to see how they will solve that.

    Anyway: MD has decided to pull back form the hobby market. so be it. It is well possible the era of MD will end for me and maybe of for some of you also.

    Pointers for those interested:

    The virtualWorldDynamics2 sells at $60.- and runs wit Poser and with DazStudio.(https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/vwd-cloth-and-hair---version-2/140730)

    or $40 as an upgrade from an older version. Restriction: Windows only.

    CU there.

         

  • Kromek David Comment actions Permalink

    To Verbaas:

    Thanks for the recommendations - I'd forgotten about VWD.  I have the first version of that, so I think I might upgrade.  And I've been meaning to get into Blender and its mesh modelling.  I've spent a lot of time learning MD, but if I'm going 'jump ship' I'll need to cultivate some alternative options.  Being a hobbyist isn't easy.

  • Douglass Jesse Comment actions Permalink

    I wouldn't worry too much about MD going this route. While the industry is trending towards subscription based applications, it also opens up other options as well. I think this started with Adobe and spread like wildfire but I think for many subscription based software packages there are other perpetual options as well. Granted not for all but it may be enough for you to help offset the costs a bit.

    Adobe Photoshop -> Affinity Photo

    Adobe Illustrator -> Affinity Designer

    Adobe Premiere -> Apple Final Cut Pro

    Adobe After Effects -> Apple Motion

    Maya -> Blender(I don't use Blender though, I still use Maya for now)

    Paintstorm Studio

    Clip Studio Paint

    There are other options as well but these are just the ones I use. I particularly like the Affinity applications.

    As long as there is demand for perpetual options then smaller developers will try to take advantage of the market and give us options and sell a product.

  • FV Comment actions Permalink

    Douglass Jesse:

    I agree with you there. The difference is of course that many apps alraady produced and accepted .psd files. MD file formats are proprietary and not documented. I can open .psd files with my PaintShopPro and even with Poser. I cannot open MD project or clothing files with any other app. This means one's database of models can go into the bin unless one subscribes. The MD file formats in particular make a good sport of not even trying to read files made by newer versions or to offer the user to save in a format readable by older versions. This clever strategy effectively makes it impossible for anyone to colaborate with others unless they also have the latest version. Of course an older version may not support model features present in the newer version, Most new things in new versions however are improved tools to make models. For the models there should not be much change.

    That is where the earlier comment of @Hans Christian above comes in.  It is an attempt to exploit a trap thay built in the program and so take the ecosystem into hostage.

    One other thing about 'perpetual'; MD's eternity only lasts as long as MD chooses to keep the licensing server running. There is no sign of or assurance of a legal backup option in case MD drops out of business. There was a time (MD2-MD3) when that option was far from being just theory.

    Hopefully the market will provide. 

  • Douglass Jesse Comment actions Permalink

    Good point about MD proprietary format being an issue. Perhaps export out the mesh as an OBJ in its default setup with UV's and archive them with the hope that another application will come along with the ability to import them and utilize the UV's as the 2d layout. It's a reach I know but it might be worth it before you get locked out when your subscription runs out.

     

    But yeah, the subscription service is BS and causes headaches for all but the developer.

  • FV Comment actions Permalink

    to Douglass Jesse:

    Yes the .obj contains both the 3D and a form of 2D representation (UV mapping). Also do not forget to save out the metadata.

  • cyberangel1975 Comment actions Permalink

    This decision is very bad. Unlike Photoshop or Substance Painter Marvelous Designer do not have any competition. It's only MD and nothing else. This decision is putting people against the wall...
    I hope Steam version will remain perpetual.

  • John Smith Comment actions Permalink

    Hey So i am on Version 8.. anyone know how do we now upgrade to version 9 or 10? there is no more price info same as no options unless it is only over a sales@email? Why can't you Companies be more freaking Transparent..

    One would think these Companies would show a leading example for future Generations to come. Yet instead they are all just copying and wow, but 2020 the year of rats 4 real lol..

  • Wheatley Brian Comment actions Permalink

    I do not currently have any subscription software in my tool box. As to whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing we'll just have to wait and see. There are a couple of things that I wanted to point out that I'm not sure if anyone mentioned.

    According to the notification the personal license is going to be less than what it is now

    Developing, maintaining, and supporting software is expensive. While you state that you feel that this will mean fewer major new features and only minor updates it may turn out to be just the opposite. There may be things that they want to implement but they don't have the manpower to invest into it. Changing to a subscription model may give them the funds that they need to add more developers.

    Right now the current version is 9 and they're going to allow current perpetual users to upgrade as far as version 12. That's a lot more notice than most companies give to their users. That way you can at least plan ahead.

    And based on feedback to this change it is always possible that they will make some adjustment.

     

  • John Smith Comment actions Permalink

    ahh if this planet only knew T_T

     

    thanks for the "LINK"

  • cyberangel1975 Comment actions Permalink

    Marvelous Designer is also at Steam version (only perpetual). I was asking what will happen with this version but unfortunately I didn't get any information.

  • Grippin Allen Comment actions Permalink

    I own MD. I will not be trading it in. It will work great for years, long after it can no longer be updated. By then, perhaps a replacement will have arrived. Make no mistake, I refuse to pay for sub-only software. I've done well by that stance for years now, and am doing fine.

    I will go out of my way, even handicap myself, to avoid rent-only software. It's a trend I will not follow, ever, no matter what. Alternatives get to be damn good, it turns out.

    Once software becomes sub-only, updates actually come LESS OFTEN and are typically bug fixes. There is no more innovation or enthusiasm. I've never seen any exception to this, and I always see the move to subs made with the opposite argument. It's pure greed.

    Sorry MD, I love you, and I update you every year... but once you go sub-only, I'll stop paying for your updates. I don't care how good they are. I'm an artist who likes to own his tools.

  • Turner Kenneth Comment actions Permalink

    I just saw a preview of the new cloth features in zBrush 2021.... I'm sad to say that MD locking users into subscriptions will just encourage more people to do everything in zBrush. ( oh and all zbrush upgrades are free with their perpetual license ... ) 

  • Wheatley Brian Comment actions Permalink

    I've heard that the cloth brush in zBrush is very similar to the cloth brush in Blender but I haven't tried either one yet

  • John Smith Comment actions Permalink

    Yeah MD did a real dumb move here, but hey there choice to ruin it for people just starting out..

  • Grippin Allen Comment actions Permalink

    I suppose it's not too dumb... they should be okay. Basically they'll be licensing for studios and larger organizations, and they're going to cut out the hobbyists, freelancers and enthusiasts. 

    But those people never had much money anyway. So, MD will be fine. They probably won't even notice.

  • FV Comment actions Permalink

    They never had much money each.

    The number are vastly different though.

  • Pitts Anthony Comment actions Permalink

    Zbrush 2021's new cloth tools seem to make this decision easy for me since Zbrush is far more important for my work than MD. 😃

  • Grippin Allen Comment actions Permalink

    Character artists don't spend the majority of time in MD. Yet another subscription thrown on the pile makes no sense for them. Their work is primarily Zbrush; Whole outfits will be sculpted in Zbrush without leaving. So I think MD's new customer base will be, exclusively, simulation artistsanimation, ect.

    I've used Blender's version of the tool. It's powerful and useful. I think Zbrush is going to take it to another level.

    I myself have become so competent sculpting cloth that I can passably rival MD, and it's faster for me. I've only resorted to MD for very loose-fitting designs that cover a large area; otherwise, I stay in Zbrush. So imagine having cloth brushes to help with that. It's exciting. 8D

  • W. Will Comment actions Permalink

    I'll upgrade my license until I can't upgrade it anymore, then I'll just have to part ways with MD. I'm sure by the time this happens, Blender cloth will have caught up and it will become a non-issue. I'm a hobbyist and I've bought each version since Marvelous Designer 4, but I'm not interested in paying 60 dollars a month for software when there's nothing you own. If I stopped now, I could use what I have indefinitely and I have the option to keep up when it's beneficial to me. Software on subscription equates to corporate welfare and I'm not on the train with that. 

  • ThunderBolt Comment actions Permalink

    I been a MD user since day 1 nearly and I left Auto Desk due to this and went to Modo, I work in the gaming industry 30 years, now I have a chance to make my family money and go indie and you guys pull this nonsense, Sub costs we cant have, there is NO INVESTMENT to them......having monthly BILLS pile on, for each software, 20-30 different software we need, each with a sub costs....plus server, plus, dev cost, Steam takes 30 %, after its all said and done, we make 15%....  No.... I don't think so.....

     

    You guys, want to be GREEDY, and pull this, you lost me and tons of others, Adobe, lost me, and others, the last version I own CS6, it works fine, I own CS2, 3, 4, 5 , 5.5, 6, that means they got money from me every year, now THEY GET NOTHING not a penny...  This happen to Maya, Max, I own 2010, 2012, 13, 15 and 16.... you can't buy after that only SUB, I went to Modo, they get my money and Houdini, they both offer a license, so I can invest and do my JOB with out monthly bills racking up and if we are developing indies MAKE nothing during that time, we can't have monthly bills.....  So....not sure why you would do this other than GREED... if its a cost thing, raise the price of the license, but you guys offer little updates, as Adobe , Auto Desk, pulls and you expect monthly costs...for what????  No....  You offer nothing, no investments, no updates.....  This is NOT CHEAPER....if I would of Sub to Modo, it would of cost me over 3000 grand so far more than what I pay right now... Over a time period, when making a game, or a business, the BOTTOM line matters, and some of you software companies want to PULL this and TAKE EVERY PENNY, if we are NOT successful, you won't be,.  

    People want an OPTION, so now people who will PAY a sub, and there are MUCH LESS....today, mainly LARGER companies, indies are becoming more of the normal in game development, and with the Epic push to Indies, oh, we have that OPTION and people will ride with it and RUN away from MD......w

     

    So if you want to continue down the road of GREED and NO OPTION, its your company, but You won't get a DIME from me, I 'm a man of my word....Ask Adobe and Auto Desk, how many people ran away from them..... Infinity is just as good as PS....and they are cheaper and offer a license, BLENDER is becoming GREAT.......and I know today many who use it instead of MD.....we have OPTIONS, we can also use an old version for YEARS of MD....which is what I would do....use my current version...and you won't get a PENNY FROM me again...

     

    Tired of you companies, doing this to make it so indies can't make a living, and contractors can't.....You want it to that only larger companies do.....Wrong Answer look at the MARKET.....Thank you Epic..... MD, you need to take NOTE of companies like Epic and stop playing games with people lively hood..

     

    RANT OFF.

  • cyberangel1975 Comment actions Permalink

    I think that MD's days in ZBrush world are numbered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvoDjXYfPSk&feature=youtu.be

  • Chris Anderson Comment actions Permalink

    After watching all the great tutorials and reviews of MD on Youtube I finally decided as a novice and using Daz Studio to give this program a go only to discover it's basically a rental through a continual subscription. Thankfully many vendors don't pull this trick when selling their programs. It's not like I'm going to be using MD every day, just for personal use for designing my own Daz Studio clothing and learning tool. I couldn't even get the try and buy 30-day trial download to mac to launch. Just a well if it's only rental. I'll find another program just as good for modelling because if the makers of MD think I'm paying them every month just to use their software they can sod off.

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